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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:10:03 GMT -5
Injuries & Moves: Duran to undergo MRI 1:39 AM ADT LATEST NEWS
Aug. 21: OF Jarren Duran (left toe contusion) to undergo MRI Duran exited in the sixth inning of Boston's win over New York on Sunday after suffering a left toe contusion while climbing the left-field wall in an attempt to catch the home run hit by Gleyber Torres.
Manager Alex Cora said after Monday's game that Duran would undergo an MRI on Tuesday. He called the foot injury "a tricky one" before the opener in Houston and did not rule out the possibility of an IL stint. No. 17 prospect Wilyer Abreu, who the Red Sox acquired from the Astros in the Christian Vázquez trade, could be a possible replacement if Duran has to miss time for his toe.
"We're talking about it," Cora said when asked if Abreu will be called up. "Jarren's going to get an MRI tomorrow. [We'll] see where we're at, and then we'll decide."
Aug. 21: INF Triston Casas back in lineup Casas returned to the lineup for Monday's opener vs. the Astros in Houston after having a tooth infection drained at a local hospital on Saturday and sitting out Sunday's finale.
"He went to see a doctor today, and everything's fine," manager Alex Cora said on Monday. "He's ready to go."
Aug. 21: RHP Tanner Houck to start Tuesday in Houston After two months on the injured list because of a facial fracture, Houck is scheduled to start against the Astros on Tuesday. Manager Alex Cora said the right-hander is expected to throw around 75 pitches. It will be his first appearance since June 16, when Houck was belted below the right eye by a line drive off the bat of Yankees catcher Kyle Higashioka at the start of the fifth inning.
Houck said he is 100 percent healthy and wants to help the Red Sox during the pennant race.
“I’m the type of guy where I’ll take the ball. Give me 30 minutes before a game -- doesn’t matter -- I’ll give you the best I can,” Houck said. “I’ll leave it all out there. ... I’m incredibly excited to get back out there with this team.”
The Red Sox got exactly what they were looking for from Houck in his third and final rehab start for Triple-A Worcester on Wednesday. The righty fired four scoreless innings, allowing one hit and no walks while striking out four. Houck threw 59 pitches (36 strikes)
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:12:58 GMT -5
Red Sox blow early 3-0 lead, lose to Astros behind bad defense/pitching
Updated: Aug. 22, 2023, 2:23 a.m.|Published: Aug. 21, 2023, 11:23 p.m.
By
Christopher Smith | csmith@masslive.com
HOUSTON — The Red Sox offense gave starting pitcher James Paxton an early 3-0 lead but the lefty failed to hold it. Boston’s defense also didn’t do Paxton any favors.
Boston lost 9-4 to the Astros at Minute Maid Park on Monday. The Red Sox partied in the clubhouse Sunday after sweeping a three-game weekend series against the Yankees in the Bronx but they were a no-show in the first game of a four-game series here in Houston.
Paxton pitched 4 innings and allowed seven runs (six earned runs), nine hits and three walks while striking out four. He now has a 9.82 ERA in three starts on regular four days rest compared to a 1.95 ERA in six starts on five days rest and a 3.83 ERA in eight starts on six or more days of rest.
Adam Duvall put the Red Sox ahead 3-0 with a 408 foot three-run homer in the first inning. But bad defense helped the Astros tie it and take the lead.
Reese McGuire received an error on a catcher’s interference that loaded the bases in the first inning. It led to a Yordan Alvarez RBI sac fly.
Rafael Devers, who had already made an off-target throw to second base in the first inning to load the bases, had more trouble in the field during the second inning. Devers couldn’t handle Alex Bregman’s 97.5 mph grounder to third base. It wasn’t ruled an error but it was playable and deflected off Devers into left field for an RBI single that tied the game 3-3.
Bad defense was a theme throughout. The Red Sox made two errors but several other bad plays. Masataka Yoshida missed a catchable flyball that ended up as a Martin Maldonado RBI double in Houston’s three-run second inning.
McCormick’s 368-foot home run off Paxton in the fourth inning made it 7-3 Houston.
Devers had an all-around bad game. He struck out swinging with runners at the corners and one out in the fourth inning. Devers also grounded into a double play to end the top of the eighth inning.
The first two Red Sox batters reached in both the fourth and fifth innings but Boston was unable to score in both frames. Boston also loaded the bases with no outs in the sixth but scored only one run.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:14:29 GMT -5
Red Sox promote prospect Wilyer Abreu, will join club Tuesday (sources)
Updated: Aug. 22, 2023, 2:24 a.m.|Published: Aug. 22, 2023, 1:05 a.m.
By
Christopher Smith | csmith@masslive.com
HOUSTON — Outfield prospect Wilyer Abreu will join the Red Sox in Houston on Tuesday, according to an industry source. Another source said that the Red Sox plan to activate Abreu for the game.
The 24-year-old left-handed batter has been arguably the hottest hitter in Triple A this month. He is 25-for-59 (.424 batting average) with a .528 on-base percentage, .949 slugging percentage, 1.477 OPS, nine homers, four doubles, 25 RBIs, 18 runs, 12 walks, 10 strikeouts and three steals in 17 games for Triple-A Worcester during August.
Manager Alex Cora wouldn’t confirm the call-up after Boston’s 9-4 loss to the Astros on Monday.
“We’re talking about it,” Cora said during his postgame press conference. “Jarren (Duran) is going to get an MRI tomorrow, see where we’re at and then we’ll decide what we do.”
It seems likely Duran will be placed on the 10-day injured list because of a left toe contusion. Duran underwent treatment Monday. He’s expected to undergo imaging Tuesday. He was removed after his eighth inning at-bat Sunday in New York.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:16:21 GMT -5
Red Sox roster moves: Lefty reliever optioned to make room for Tanner Houck
Updated: Aug. 22, 2023, 2:05 a.m.|Published: Aug. 22, 2023, 1:26 a.m.
By
Christopher Smith | csmith@masslive.com
HOUSTON — The Red Sox have optioned left-handed reliever Chris Murphy to Triple-A Worcester to make room on the active roster for Tanner Houck who will start Tuesday against the Astros.
Houck has been on the 15-day injured list since June 18 (retroactive to June 17) after he suffered a facial fracture. Houck got struck in the face by an 89.7 mph batted ball June 16. He underwent surgery and had a plate inserted into his face.
Murphy likely will rejoin the Red Sox’s big league roster as a September call-up. However, he needs to remain in Triple A for 15 days before he’s allowed to be recalled. And so he’s not eligible to return until Sept. 6, unless he’s replacing an injured player.
Murphy pitched the final four innings of Boston’s 9-4 loss to the Astros on Monday at Minute Maid Park. He allowed two runs on two solo homers in the eighth inning. The 25-year-old rookie has been solid for the Red Sox this season, posting a 3.72 ERA in 13 outings (38 ⅔ innings).
Brennan Bernardino now is the only left-handed reliever on Boston’s active roster. But it makes sense to stack the bullpen with right-handed pitchers for the next nine games (six against the Astros and three against the Dodgers). The Astros have slashed .244/.319/.403/.722 vs. right-handed pitchers and .271/.338/.461/.799 vs. left-handed pitchers. The Dodgers have slashed .254/.336/.449/.785 vs. right-handers and .245/.338/.466/.804 against lefties.
The Red Sox are expected to announce four roster moves before Tuesday’s game. They are promoting prospect Wilyer Abreu from Triple-A Worcester. Jarren Duran will undergo an MRI on his toe Tuesday and seems likely to be placed on the IL
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:18:28 GMT -5
Dan Shaughnessy @dan_Shaughnessy · 8h MLB's summer of official scoring corruption continues. It's the third inning in Houston. Devers should have two errors. He has none. One was assigned, then taken away. Embarrassing.
Paxton makes an error on routine comebacker. It is ruled a hit. Simply comical. Official scoring aside, can anybody remember a worse defensive team than these Red Sox?
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:19:49 GMT -5
Red Sox Stats @redsoxstats · 9h So many big games for the Sox in this stadium, and yet the first thing that comes to mind is last year’s trade deadline and what a lame, miserable group of players they decided to be.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:27:05 GMT -5
RED SOX NOTEBOOK Jarren Duran headed to IL due to bruised toe suffered during series finale against Yankees By Julian McWilliams Globe Staff,Updated August 22, 2023, 2:00 a.m.
HOUSTON — Jarren Duran will be placed on the 10-day IL, a source confirmed Monday evening following the Red Sox’ 9-4 loss to the Astros in the first of a four-game set.
Outfield prospect Wilyer Abreu will take Duran’s place on the active roster. Abreu was hitting .274/.391/.538 with 22 homers for Triple-A Worcester before Monday.
Duran bruised his left toe during Sunday’s series finale against the Yankees after climbing the wall on a Gleyber Torres solo home run in the sixth inning.
Duran stayed in the contest but was seen hobbling off the field in the eighth inning on a ground out. He then walked down the tunnel with a member of the Sox staff following him.
“[Speed] is his game,” Cora said. “He’s a little bit sore. He’s day to day, but let’s see how he reacts to treatment, and then we’ll decide what we do.”Hopefully it’s not an IL thing. Hopefully it’s something that is a few days and he’ll be back. But because it’s his feet and that’s what he does, it’s a tricky one.”
Since he was recalled from Triple-A Worcester in April to replace the then-injured Adam Duvall, Duran has been the Sox’ most electric player, changing the game with his legs. Duran leads the team in doubles (34), using his speed to turn singles for others into doubles. He also leads the Sox in stolen bases by a large margin (24, 16 more than Masataka Yoshida).
“He’s sore,” said Cora. “You saw him in his last at-bat. He felt it right away. He thought he could play through it, but I think we were very smart taking him out of the game at that point.”
Duran was in the midst of an August funk prior to his injury, forcing Cora to drop him in the lineup and put Alex Verdugo back in the leadoff spot. Duran is hitting just .192 this month in 17 games. But Cora believes Duran, who registered a hit in each of the last two games against the Yankees, is getting back on track.
Jarren Duran is batting .192 in 17 games this month.
“He’s been better on the fastball,” said Cora. “He’s been able to shoot the ball to left-center. That first at-bat [Saturday] against [Gerrit] Cole, you saw him fouling off pitches, and staying on the pitches.
“That’s a good thing about him,” Cora continued. “I do believe that he can go through [bad stretches] and understand what he needs to do. Obviously he’s not gonna be hitting .500 at this level the whole season, but he understands what he needs to do and he’s been solid the last few games.”
Despite the recent downturn, Duran is still hitting .295/.346/.482 with eight homers and 40 RBIs.
If, indeed, Duran needs an IL stint, the Sox could call on outfield prospect Wilyer Abreu, who was hitting .274/.391/.538 with 22 homers for Triple-A Worcester.
Casas back in there
Triston Casas missed the final two contests of the Yankee series due to a tooth infection. However Casas was cleared to play after visiting with a specialist Monday in Houston, and went 1 for 4 with a walk in his return.
Casas is still dealing with some pain, Cora said. He had the tooth drained over the weekend in New York which brought down some of the swelling. Nonetheless, his face is still visibly swollen from the infected area.
With Casas back in the lineup, Justin Turner got a much-needed day off to rest his ailing feet. Turner has been dealing with a bone bruise in his right heel since Aug. 1.
The injury normally takes roughly around four-to-six weeks to fully heal, but given that the Sox are still in the midst of a playoff push, Turner decided to play through it. Cora, ideally, wanted to keep Turner as the full-time DH, but when Casas went down, the Sox were obligated to put Turner at first base for consecutive games, and one at DH.
Turner will be back in the lineup Tuesday. Tanner Houck (facial fracture) is set to be reinstated from the IL and start Tuesday against Justin Verlander.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 4:29:53 GMT -5
Red Sox @ Astros Tuesday, 22nd August 2023 8pm @ Minute Maid Park
Houck 3-6/ 5.05
Verlander 2-1/ 4.50
Justin Verlander, Astros face Red Sox in Tanner Houck's return FLM
On the heels of being swept by a division foe playing with abundant confidence, the Houston Astros were in sore need of something that would shift the momentum back in their favor.
Before they came to bat for the first time against the visiting Boston Red Sox on Monday, the Astros faced a 3-0 deficit courtesy of a three-run home run from Adam Duvall.
What followed with a determined climb that resulted in a 9-4 Houston victory. The Astros and Red Sox will play the second game of a four-game series on Tuesday.
Houston scored one run in the bottom of the first and added three-run frames in the second and fourth.
Entering Tuesday, the Astros are 1 1/2 games behind the Texas Rangers in the American League West, and Houston holds the second of three AL wild-card spots. Boston sits four games back of the Seattle Mariners in the race for the final AL wild-card position.
After the Mariners had their way with the Astros over the weekend during a three-game sweep, Houston recovered from Boston's early haymaker on Monday.
"You have no choice," Astros manager Dusty Baker said of forging the comeback. "You've got to fight yourself and the feelings of, 'Here we go again.' (The Mariners) got the two-out hits all weekend, and (the Red Sox) got that two-out home run. Like, man, why is it always two outs?"
Justin Verlander (8-6, 3.36 ERA) has the starting assignment for the Astros on Tuesday, his fourth start since rejoining Houston at the trade deadline.
The 40-year-old right-hander labored in his most recent start, against the host Miami Marlins on Wednesday, allowing five runs (four earned) on nine hits and two walks with two strikeouts over five innings. However, he was the beneficiary of ample run support in a 12-5 win. Verlander is 2-1 with a 4.50 ERA since returning to the Astros.
Verlander owns a 5-6 record and a 2.87 ERA over 19 career regular-season starts against the Red Sox. His most recent appearance against Boston came on May 26, 2019, when he allowed three runs (two earned) on five hits with six strikeouts and no walks over seven innings in a 4-1 home loss for the Astros.
Right-hander Tanner Houck (3-6, 5.05 ERA) is scheduled to start for the Red Sox on Tuesday following his activation from the injured list. Houck has been out for two months following a facial fracture sustained June 16 against the New York Yankees when he was hit by a line drive below the right eye.
Before landing on the injured list, Houck was mired in a nine-start winless streak during which he was 0-6 with a 5.40 ERA. He opened the season 3-0 with a 4.29 ERA over his first four starts.
"It's good to be back," Houck said. "Long road, but I know things could have been much worse so excited to get back out there (on Tuesday).
"Missing any sort of time, you've got to go through the process of building the arm back up. You can't just jump in headfirst and go 80 pitches Day 1. But that's why we've got a great medical staff here. They've been great the entire way through."
Houck has not recorded a decision in two career appearances against the Astros. He earned the save in both relief outings against Houston in 2022, posting one strikeout in a total of 2 2/3 scoreless innings.
--Field Level Media
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 8:04:56 GMT -5
Reality just slapped the Red Sox across the face once again
By Rob Bradford WEEI 93.7 an hour ago
Current Time 0:52 / Duration 13:37
By Rob Bradford WEEI 93.7 an hour ago
The Red Sox are the car doing circular donuts in the high school parking lot. Round and round and round. Smoke and noise rising up for everyone to take notice of. Yet, not going in any particular direction.
Monday night, those wheels kept on spinning.
For a bit, it appeared as though the Red Sox were going to break off and start heading down a defined road. The euphoria that came with sweeping the Yankees was pumped full of even more gas with Adam Duvall's first-inning, three-run homer in the Sox' series opener against the Astros. (With a Kevin Millar prediction to top off the good times.)
But then the circles started once again.
The uncomfortable image of James Paxton taking a turn for the worse while giving up six runs over four innings highlighted the Red Sox' sudden turn for the worse. It pushed the lefty's ERA to 9.82 in the three starts he has had four days of rest.
“Going [every fifth day] is something you have to do in baseball,” Paxton told reporters. “I was asked to do it this time around. It didn’t go great. But I’m sure it’s going to happen again, and I’ll get after it again out there.
Making matters worse was the latest round of defensive awfulness courtesy a some more uneasiness in the field from Rafael Devers, and a flat-out drop in right field by Alex Verdugo.
And then there was another reminder of how delicate this whole equation can be, with one of the straws-that-stirs-the-Red Sox-offense's-drink Justin Turner needing to sit out while Trevor Story continued his struggles, going 0-for-4 with three strikeouts (now hitting .186 since his return).
By the end of the night, the adrenaline that was seemingly pushing the Red Sox to contention had completely drained out of their system.
The Red Sox' reality was back.
With the loss, and Seattle's seventh straight win, Alex Cora's club finds itself four games of the final Wild Card spot. And, to make matters worse, the meeting with the Astros (who currently do own one of the postseason berths) was the beginning of a stretch where the Sox will play a team over .500 in 28 of their next 38 games.
And while the Red Sox will finish off their stay in Houston with three more games before returning home to play the Dodgers, followed by another set with the Astros, the Mariners will be gifted a scheduling sweet spot. Seattle next four opponents - the White Sox, Royals, A's and Mets - are combined 137 games under .500.
The Red Sox' path back to those postgame beer showers seems simple: Forget about the Mariners and beat the Astros, a team it trails by 4 1/2 games but will play a bunch over the next week or so.
We can talk about what happened in the travesty that was the Toronto series, or all those miscues against sub-.500 teams, but this is where the rubber will truly be meeting the road.
Yes, thanks to these games against the Astros, we might finally be able to see the Red Sox break out of their never-ending circle of uncertainty and pick a path. Monday night, they started creeping down the wrong road.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 13:17:00 GMT -5
Red Sox to place Jarren Duran on IL, one of several roster moves (source)
Updated: Aug. 22, 2023, 12:09 p.m.|Published: Aug. 22, 2023, 11:40 a.m.
By
Christopher Smith | csmith@masslive.com
HOUSTON — The Red Sox will place outfielder Jarren Duran on the 10-day injured list Tuesday, per an industry source. It will be one of four roster moves Boston will make official before first pitch.
Duran left the Red Sox’s win over the Yankees on Sunday during the eighth inning because of a left toe contusion. He did not undergo X-rays or see a doctor that night. The Red Sox were hopeful he would be fine but they determined he would need to be placed on the IL late Monday after he received treatment. Boston has scheduled an MRI for Duran.
The Red Sox will promote left-handed hitting outfield prospect Wilyer Abreu to take Duran’s spot. It will be his first big league stint. Boston acquired Abreu with Enmanuel Valdez from the Astros at the 2022 trade deadline for Christian Vázquez. Boston also will option Chris Murphy to Triple-A Worcester and activate Tanner Houck from the IL.
“Hopefully it’s something that it’s a few days and he’ll be back but because it’s his feet and that’s what he does, it’s one of those that it’s a tricky one,” manager Alex Cora said about Duran before Monday’s game.
Duran is tied for fifth in the major leagues in doubles with 34. Many of them have been hustle doubles. He’s also 24-for-26 in stolen base attempts. So the Red Sox don’t want to put him out there if he’s not able to do what he does best.
The 24-year-old Abreu has been arguably the hottest hitter in Triple A this month. He is 25-for-59 (.424 batting average) with a .528 on-base percentage, .949 slugging percentage, 1.477 OPS, nine homers, four doubles, 25 RBIs, 18 runs, 12 walks, 10 strikeouts and three steals in 17 games for Triple-A Worcester during August.
“It’s a kid that controls the strike zone,” Cora said about Abreu before Monday’s game. “We knew that in spring training. Him and Valdez, one of the things they do is that. And that’s why they have quality at-bats. The power is the power. I don’t get caught up on that. The quality of the at-bats is what we like. Both of them, coming from here (Houston) and what they do in the minor leagues. That’s the thing they preach: control the strike zone.”
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 13:24:59 GMT -5
Lou Merloni @loumerloni · 2h Outs Above Average (OAA) is the cumulative effect of all individual plays a fielder has been credited or debited with, making it a range-based metric of fielding skill that accounts for the number of plays made and the difficulty of them. Cincy is -19 (29th in MLB) Sox? -51 !!!!!
As far as I can see, OAA started being tracked in 2016. Only the 2017 Mets have been worse (-58). They have pitching. They have hitting. But Defense? It’s killed them all year. Gotta be better to have a shot.
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 13:29:36 GMT -5
Game 126: Red Sox at Astros lineups and notesBy Andrew Mahoney Globe Staff,Updated August 22, 2023, 2 hours ago Monday night’s game with the Astros started off well enough, with Adam Duvall’s three-run homer in the first inning staking the Sox to a 3-0 lead. But sloppy defense and a lack of timely hitting would follow as Houston won the series opener, 9-4. The series continues Tuesday night when Tanner Houck makes his return to the starting pitching rotation after missing the last two months with a facial fracture suffered when he was struck by a line drive on June 16. Justin Verlander will be on the mound for Houston, making his fourth start since returning to the Astros at the trade deadline. The Sox will be without outfielder Jarren Duran, who will be placed on the 10-day IL. The Astros are 1½ games behind the Rangers in the American League West, and hold the second of three AL wild-card spots. The Sox are four games behind the Mariners in the race for the final wild card. Here are the standings entering Tuesday’s action. Lineups RED SOX (66-59): Alex Verdugo (L) RF Rafael Devers (L) 3B Justin Turner (R) DH Masataka Yoshida (L) LF Adam Duvall (R) CF Triston Casas (L) 1B Trevor Story (R) SS Luis Urias (R) 2B Connor Wong (R) C Pitching: RHP Tanner Houck (3-6, 5.05 ERA) ASTROS (71-55): Jose Altuve (R) 2B Alex Bregman (R) 3B Kyle Tucker (L) RF Yordan Alvarez (L) DH Chas McCormick (R) LF Mauricio Dubon (R) CF Jon Singleton (L) 1B Jeremy Pena (R) SS Martin Maldonado (R) C Pitching: RHP Justin Verlander (8-6, 3.15 ERA) Time: 8:10 p.m. TV, radio: NESN, TBS, WEEI-FM 93.7 Red Sox vs. Verlander: Rafael Devers 1-5, Reese McGuire 0-3, Rob Refsnyder 2-2, Trevor Story 1-5, Justin Turner 0-5, Luis Urías 1-2 Astros vs. Houck: Jose Altuve 0-1, Chas McCormick 0-1, Jeremy Peña 0-1 Stat of the day: James Paxton, working on regular rest, took the loss Monday night. In three starts on four-days rest, Paxton has a 9.82 ERA compared to a 1.95 ERA (six starts) on five days of rest. Notes: Before landing on the injured list, Houck endured a nine-start winless streak in which he was 0-6 with a 5.40 ERA. He opened the season 3-0 with a 4.29 ERA over his first four starts. Houck has two saves in two career appearances against the Astros, posting one strikeout in a total of 2⅔ scoreless innings in 2022. … Verlander is 2-1 with a 4.50 ERA since returning to the Astros. He is 5-6 and has a 2.87 ERA over 19 career regular-season starts against the Red Sox, but has not face them since May 26, 2019, when he allowed three runs (two earned) on five hits with six strikeouts and no walks over seven innings in a 4-1 home loss for the Astros. Song of the Day: The Clash - Rock the Casbah www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ
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Post by CP_Jon_GoSox on Aug 22, 2023 16:41:53 GMT -5
Nathan Han reposted Square profile picture Red Sox @redsox · 1h The #RedSox today announced the following roster moves:
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Post by Kimmi on Aug 22, 2023 17:15:24 GMT -5
Reality just slapped the Red Sox across the face once again
Yes, thanks to these games against the Astros, we might finally be able to see the Red Sox break out of their never-ending circle of uncertainty and pick a path. Monday night, they started creeping down the wrong road. It was one game Bradford. You really don't expect the Sox to win every game, do you? That said, I agree that the Sox have had cycles of really good followed by really bad. They need to break that right now. To state the obvious, they can't continue having the bad losing stretches.
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Post by Kimmi on Aug 22, 2023 17:17:08 GMT -5
Lou Merloni @loumerloni · 2h Outs Above Average (OAA) is the cumulative effect of all individual plays a fielder has been credited or debited with, making it a range-based metric of fielding skill that accounts for the number of plays made and the difficulty of them. Cincy is -19 (29th in MLB) Sox? -51 !!!!!
As far as I can see, OAA started being tracked in 2016. Only the 2017 Mets have been worse (-58). They have pitching. They have hitting. But Defense? It’s killed them all year. Gotta be better to have a shot. Our defense has been terrible. I don't think anyone is trying to argue against that.
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